This is more of a history lesson that anything else, but it serves the Radix Fidem mission to have some knowledge of these things.

While poking around as light research for a book idea, I came across this essay: "Women in Ancient Israel and the Hebrew Bible" (I attached the pdf of the essay to this post, for safekeeping). Below is an excerpt regarding the role of women in terms of musicianship.

I thought the remark about the singers being specially trained was interesting. To me, it means they took the task seriously, and at the time we can assume singing--along with other "available" arts like sculpting or dancing--were some of the highest forms of expression of devotion. Besides making and eating food, which was a monumental task in itself given their technology and environment, there was precious else to distract themselves with. It makes some sense that whatever they chose to do with their free time would have huge impact. But, this is coming from a Western brain (my own): note that I use "chose" and "free time," which may not have the meaning it does given how different Ancient Near East and 21st century cultures are.

For the entire essay, as a broad rule, take it with a grain of salt. Undoubtedly, the author is writing from a Western, feminist academic tradition, and it shows in some of the sly editorials made throughout. There's some good tidbits there, if you can ignore the arrogant presumption that Ancient Hebrew women wanted or needed the same things, or held the same values, as the author does.

Quote:Women Religious Functionaries: Musicians

One final note should be made about Miriam: that in Exodus 15:20–21, where she is identified as a prophet, she is also described as taking up a frame drum and leading the women of Israel in drumming, dancing, and singing as they celebrate the Israelites’ miraculous deliverance from the forces of the Egyptians at the Reed [more traditionally, “Red”] Sea. Nor is Miriam the only woman to perform this role of celebrating Yahweh’s and the Israelites’ triumph in a holy war. Other instances of this “victory song” performance can be found in Judges 5:1–31 (Deborah’s song celebrating the Israelite victory over Sisera and his Canaanite army); Judges 11:34 (where the daughter of Jephthah goes forth to greet her father playing frame drums and dancing after he returns home victorious from battle against the Ammonites); 1 Samuel 18:6–7 (where the women of the towns of Israel serenade King Saul as he marches back from battle by playing frame drums, dancing, and singing of his triumph); and Psalms 68:11–12 (Heb. 68:11–12), where female heralds are commissioned to sing out the news of Yahweh’s victory in holy war. This tradition of women’s “victory song” performance is also evoked metaphorically in Jeremiah 31:4.

Other occasions when Israelite women assume responsibilities as ritual musicians may include women’s music-making during the autumn harvest festival of Ingathering, or Sukkot. This tradition is intimated in Judges 21:19–21, where, during the celebration of a festival commentators almost unanimously identify as Sukkot, the young women of Shiloh—the site of this particular Sukkot celebration—are said to come out “to dance in the dances.” The same tradition of women’s music-making at Sukkot, at the same site (Shiloh), may be alluded to in 1 Samuel 2:1–10, where Hannah is said to sing a hymn of praise and thanksgiving on the occasion of the Sukkot festival associated with the dedication of her newly weaned son Samuel to Yahweh’s cultic service. Another text that speaks to the special role for women as singers and dancers in conjunction with the celebration of Sukkot is found in Jeremiah 31:10–14, where young women are described as dancing at the time of the harvest of the grapes and olives—that is, the harvest preeminently associated with the Sukkot festival. The special place of women as musicians in conjunction with the grape harvest celebration is also suggested by Isaiah 5:1–7, a text that draws on an actual song of the Sukkot festival that originally must have been sung by a woman (as indicated by the reference to a male beloved in v. 1).

A third and final arena in which Israelite women assumed responsibilities as ritual musicians is in making music in conjunction with various life-cycle rituals. Particularly well attested is women’s role as singers of lamentation in conjunction with funerary rites and on the occasion of funeral-like events. A oft-quoted passage in Jeremiah 31:15, for example, speaks of how, at the time of the Babylonian invasions of the late 7th and early 6th centuries bce, the voice of the long-dead Rachel is heard performing a dirge over her devastated descendants. Second Samuel 1:24; Jeremiah 7:29; 9:17–21 (Hebrew 9:16–20); Ezekiel 8:14; and possibly Amos 5:16 also speak to the Israelite tradition of women as singers of lamentations. Indeed, in Jeremiah 9:17–21 (Hebrew 9:16–20), the dictum that the lamenting women should be summoned suggests a group of women specializing in lamentation, and this is also implied in the text’s reference to these women as being “expert” or “learned” in their craft (meaning, probably, specially trained). In v. 20 (Hebrew v. 19), moreover, these female lament singers are commanded to teach their daughters a dirge, possibly suggesting that the profession of the lament singer was handed down by women from one generation to the next.45

Coming-of-age rituals and weddings, too, may have been life-cycle events during which the women of ancient Israel were called upon to make music, although our evidence is sparse.

Good find, Jay. A couple of things come to mind. There was precious little social mixing between sexes in the Ancient Hebrew world. Men and women generally operated in parallel societies, even in small villages where everyone was related. Everyone got more done that way. It encouraged individuals to develop multiple talents, as well, because the experts were typically one's one gender. There were plenty of things that were available to both, but the segregation was not just by law; it reflects the tendencies we recognize from today's red-pill lore. Most of the Hebrew people simply preferred it that way.

The pace of life was a lot slower in the first place. There were days when the task at hand required hard work all day, but that came in pretty short bursts, typically at the various types of harvest and things like sheep-shearing. A week or two of exhausting labor, and then a day or two to celebrate as life slides back into a slower pace. Most of the year there was plenty of time for socializing and sharpening talents and skills that had more of a religious and social value.

A given village had groups of men and women who associated around certain crafts, such as the above mentioned dirges and victory celebrations. A few folks seemed capable of doing almost everything and anything, just as today, while most people picked out things that gave their lives meaning, a place in society.

I dare say their idea of musical "talent" would not likely coincide with ours all that much. Most of what we think of today as "Jewish music" is actually eastern European folk music, which also bears little resemblance to the ancient styles. Scholars admit they don't really know what ANE music sounded like; it's mostly guesswork. Chances are good typical Arabic music styles come closer, but there's no way to estimate how far things have drifted in 2000+ years.

(04-13-2018, 05:15 AM)Ed Hurst Wrote: Good find, Jay. A couple of things come to mind. There was precious little social mixing between sexes in the Ancient Hebrew world. Men and women generally operated in parallel societies, even in small villages where everyone was related. Everyone got more done that way. It encouraged individuals to develop multiple talents, as well, because the experts were typically one's one gender. There were plenty of things that were available to both, but the segregation was not just by law; it reflects the tendencies we recognize from today's red-pill lore. Most of the Hebrew people simply preferred it that way.

This is good info. They were "organized" (loosely used term, because I don't think it was organized as much as it was that it fell into place) that way partly, I think, because that was the best way to survive, and because they didn't have the same cultural values we do. This "two team" running in conjunction would never fly today because it would be seen as a real antagonism, like a competition. People back then would think that's ridiculous.

It is interesting to notice these days, at gatherings of families or adults, the natural tendency of women, men and chlidren to gather with their own.  Women love to share, talk and keep an eye on the little ones.  Men gather to share experiences and such.  Children gather to play.  Not meaning to sound old fashioned or close-minded, but unless there is a sexual  or some career-oriented purpose, men and women don't usually gather at such activities after all the greetings have been said.  It would seem that behavior shows what is natural (as in how God made things to be).

With men in ancient times probably more involved in the protection and defense of the family/tribe or in the expansion /conquest of the land, women would be more apt to develop the music based rituals for a variety of reasons.  Since I dont believe women were involved in the actual "fighting" activities, it would only make sense that they would contribute to or more likely be the driving force behind those celebratory (be it a conquest, a birth, a death, etc) rituals.

We all should have a "place" in society where we feel comfortable and "fit".  Unfortunately, this modern day society is so twisted and mangled that finding that "place" is nigh impossible because nothing in this society is natural.

It made things a whole lot less awkward when it was time to marry your cousin.

Quote: Not meaning to sound old fashioned or close-minded, but unless there is a sexual  or some career-oriented purpose, men and women don't usually gather at such activities after all the greetings have been said.

There's nothing wrong with being closed-minded (since everyone is, about something), and nothing wrong with being old-fashioned, though I guess it depends on what kind of "old" it is. :

But I do agree with you about the separation, and I have noticed that at family gatherings, where there are enough warm bodies to make the data noticeable. It's fairly natural to separate, in that we rarely need to be forced into the separation. Only a fool would say it's a bad thing (of course, there's plenty of fools to go around).