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Tomorrowland! - IainH - 02-25-2018
".....and the home of the brave!!!!!!" YAY!! EVERYONE CHEERS!!! The USAF fly's over WaaaOOOOOSSH!!! YAYYY!!!! Everyone goes bananas. Pick your occasion it's the same thing Superbowl, yeehaa Daytona 500 boys! or Indy 500! Yes! Milk with Vodka! Billy Graham's funeral, well okay maybe that's a bit much but, my darling boy who just turned 17 (the terrible two's for teenagers, not quite there yet but, they think they ought to be) on the 22nd, told me that in Morganton, NC. LEO's and firefighters had blocked off one lane on bridges that cross I40 so people could sit in lawn chairs to observe to solemn procession transporting the great Evangelist's mortal remains to DC. I may break my no news watching policy to watch as much as I can stomach. Fox News, of course, as a good patriotic 'Merkan Christian should. Now, where I'm from BG and Lil' Frankie have a big footprint. Samaritan's Purse is based in Boone, NC, I have a friend who works in the employees cafeteria kitchen. I don't suppose they see the big cheese very often. My wife sees Franklin once a year when he comes to the clinic for his flight physical, he's a pilot you know. I pass by Samaritan's Purses' training and conference center almost everyday on my way to the grocery store to "get something for supper". It's a lovely building, originally conceived and built by Blowing Rock Stage Company as a theatre just before the collapse of 2008. BRSC was great, I love theatre and every season we would go to at least one performance in the auditorium of Blowing Rock School, they had big plans for their new facility but, alas it was not to be. Still, I got to see one play and saw Guy Penrod which was wonderful. But, I'm not here to talk about SP.
I do not hold to the decision theology of modern America, to which, the late Dr Graham was it's greatest exemplar but, even he, said this "being a Christian is more than just an instantaneous conversion, it is like a daily process whereby you grow to be more and more like Christ". The problem I have with this approach is that it makes obscene, the sacrifice of Christ. What do I mean by this? I believe scripture is clear that salvation is purely a work of God. Nowhere does Jesus say " If you like what you hear, come join us" or "heaven or hell, the choice is yours", to the contrary Jesus speaks of those the Father has given him and the sheep hear MY voice. A choice is a work of the human mind, which is fallen so, to make salvation a mere human decision is an obscenity. Check your Bible and find me one instance where "the individuals right to choose" has a positive outcome and I will buy you a box of Krispy Kreem donuts*. Find me an instance where the "individuals right to choose" has a negative outcome and you get nothing because, the Bible is chock full of them and that's because when people get to choose, they generally choose sin. Now if you can point back to where your journey began, that's great, if it was at a Church altar, that's great too. For me, it was the living room of a small apartment in Vista, California, was I "saved" that morning? Heck no, within a month I was back to old ways but, God had his hooks in me and he kept reeling, two years later I was baptized, was it then? No, I was marked before the foundation of the world. What I'm trying to say is salvation, American style where you just decide one day after listening to someone talk, "okay, that sounds good, I'm a Christian now" is false and a money racket. Salvation is God pulling you on a level that your mind, no matter how you cut it, can pin down. The Bible calls it a mystery, it also speaks of the heart as the conduit through which God speaks. If you are called by Him, on some level you sense it as indescribable and unexplainable but, it's there you feel it, you know it. It is inherently mystical, now don't get scared and run off. All we try to do here is explore the mysteries of faith in Jesus Christ through the faculty of our hearts and that's how it should be, how it was in our ancient past, how it will be long after we're gone and how it will pass into eternity. Amen.
Phew! That was a long'un.
* Artistic license I ain't buying nobody donuts! Although if I ever knock on your door I'll make sure I bring some.
RE: Tomorrowland! - Ed Hurst - 02-26-2018
Apple fritters for me, Iain. I think we can agree we won't miss Billy Graham. Given what I know about some of the things he tried to hide over his career, I'm not even sure we can say he was well-meaning.
RE: Tomorrowland! - jaybreak - 02-26-2018
^ I heard he made anti-Semitic statements, but that's coming from dubious sources (maintream news). They can find anti-Semitism in a bowl of gefilte fish.
Iain, all true points. God doesn't see results, at least not the same way we do. We tend to think of results as "whatever we can look at now, in the present." God can see it all, so a result to Him is simply part of the process.
I'm not fond of "systems" that propose to explain how salvation works. It's mystical by definition, so the limits of human language can only describe the barest outline and not much else. We get the sense that salvation is somehow communing with God that is particular, compared to those who haven't had the salvation process in their lives. It's probably some mix of determinism and free will, though I don't pretend to know what that really looks like. I may be able to come up with something if I took some time to mull it over.
RE: Tomorrowland! - IainH - 02-26-2018
(02-26-2018, 10:08 AM)Ed Hurst Wrote: Apple fritters for me, Iain. I think we can agree we won't miss Billy Graham. Given what I know about some of the things he tried to hide over his career, I'm not even sure we can say he was well-meaning.I concur but, the guy was an "American Icon" and to do that one must sell ones soul to the "American Ideal". So, before he died, to paraphrase our Lord he had already received his reward. So, in the interests of our cause I refrain from critisism outside of here. In practice I just bear a grave and sober countenance and nod when people speak of his supposed greatness. I'm very patient when it comes to spreading our thing. I recognize those who are trying and feed them crumbs, all at once it's quite jarring because, basically you're telling someone that everything they've been taught is bs, however, if you bring a person along at their own pace eventually they'll see it for themselves.
(02-26-2018, 01:46 PM)jaybreak Wrote: ^ I heard he made anti-Semitic statements, but that's coming from dubious sources (maintream news). They can find anti-Semitism in a bowl of gefilte fish.BG is on WH tape talking to Nixon in 1972 about Jews "stranglehold" on media. BG later apologized but, it wasn't until the Christian Zionistas became The dominant voice in AC. Sorry, American Christianity, I really need to come up with a list of the abbreviations I use. Golldangit gosh it to Pete! Our internet keeps cutting out, wind. At the top of the "holler" is a saddle between two peaks in middle is "thee Blowing Rock"( check out the legend online, given the wind here, in winter, I almost belief it) the wind blasts through the gap and roars down the valley, our house is unfortunately at the narrowest point, given the venturi effect, the wind speed reaches hurricane force which sporadicifies* our internet.
Iain, all true points. God doesn't see results, at least not the same way we do. We tend to think of results as "whatever we can look at now, in the present." God can see it all, so a result to Him is simply psrt of the process.
I'm not fond of "systems" that propose to explain how salvation works. It's mystical by definition, so the limits of human language can only describe the barest outline and not much else. We get the sense that salvation is somehow communing with God that is particular, compared to those who haven't had the salvation process in their lives. It's probably some mix of determinism and free will, though I don't pretend to know what that really looks like. I may be able to come up with something if I took some time to mull it over.
* I exercise my God given "rat" as a "Merkan" citizen to butcher the English language. Oops almost forgot!
PS. Following the western obsession with nailing jello to the wall, I'd say I tend towards the TULIP Reformed version as refined by the late Dr Sproul but even that is just an indicator. In practice, I'll accept "whatever floats your boat" until I see the fruit.
RE: Tomorrowland! - forrealone - 03-03-2018
Nice to see another NC tarheel here! I am down past Raleigh but visit your neck of the woods often. I love me some Blowin Rock. Sorry, nothin to do about BG in this comment though.
RE: Tomorrowland! - jaybreak - 03-05-2018
The farthest south I've ever been is Virginia, and even then only for maybe (or not even) a day.
The farthest west I've been is probably Kalamazoo, MI or South Bend, IN.
I'm not well traveled, but I did go to Montreal for a few days.
So...what about Billy Graham? Haha.
RE: Tomorrowland! - IainH - 03-06-2018
(03-03-2018, 01:47 PM)forrealone Wrote: Nice to see another NC tarheel here! I am down past Raleigh but visit your neck of the woods often. I love me some Blowin Rock. Sorry, nothin to do about BG in this comment though.Bring $$$ main st full of boutique stores any more, but you can still find some bargains, tell them you want the "Miss Judi" discount they will think your friends with my mother in law. My daughters closet is full of them. Nana spoils her grandchildren but, that's OK. I also know where the best food is at.
RE: Tomorrowland! - IainH - 03-06-2018
(03-05-2018, 06:27 PM)jaybreak Wrote: The farthest south I've ever been is Virginia, and even then only for maybe (or not even) a day.You need to take your family for a ride down the Blue Ridge Parkway, I believe you'll find a more pleasant, accommodating people anywhere. Folk art is plentiful as a matter of fact they have bluegrass and gospel "pickin' and a grinnin'" sessions within earshot of my front deck, that brings in people to buy their pottery. I'm a old school hard rock guy myself but the visitors seem to like it.
The farthest west I've been is probably Kalamazoo, MI or South Bend, IN.
I'm not well traveled, but I did go to Montreal for a few days.
So...what about Billy Graham? Haha.
My family moved to Scotland when I was seven, it may seem odd to Americans but, religious instruction was still part of the public school system, assembly as it was called was held once a week, I was also involved in the Boy's Brigade both were within the purview of the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) which accounts for my reformed bent. I was also exposed to Protestant/ Roman Catholic sectarianism which was every bit as fervent as found in Northern Ireland. Many of my mother's family were Masons and Orange Lodge members and had strong opinions on Papists, fenians, left footers and taigs. I fell for it until I was old enough to think for myself when I decided that neither side had a monopoly on God and because of it I became if not quite a full on Atheist, an avowed agnostic. The only contact I had with evangelical types was on vacation when I was fifteen and I met a youth leader for a group of Christian kid campers, I went to their campfire weiny roast where they sang kum ban yah type stuff. I did feel something stir in me, I believe that was the first time God touched His finger to my heart. I moved back to the US on my own in 1984 and saw my first BG Crusade on TV, I thought it weird that one mans charisma could draw so many people based on what seemed to be a rational decision based on the options he layed out. "That many people fell for that shit?" was my thinking. Living and working in the bible belt was definitely a culture shock, finding Jack T Shit bible tracts on your windshield wipers and "do you know Jesus as your personal savior, have you accepted Christ?" did not jive with what I had been taught that salvation was God's gift and not a decision you make for yourselves. So, no I never have understood the godlike status Mr Graham held in American Christianity. I exercise very little free will in my life. I choose what coffee I drink but, everything else is governed by my duties and obligations as a husband and father. I would love to exercise free will and pack my stuff on my ole Harley and disappear. I tend to believe that free will is a western illusion. There is a certain degree of free choice in how we choose to relate to one another, I believe in the matter of salvation I fall on the side of Irresistible Grace as a gift of God and not the mental working of a fallen reason in making a choice in the flesh. I find that argument to be built on sand. Sorry once again for absolutely inexcusable long windedness. I'm just as bad in person, ask my beloved.... On second thought don't.
RE: Tomorrowland! - Ed Hurst - 03-06-2018
My biggest problem with Billy Graham is how he too often said one thing in public and did something entirely different behind the scenes. Had he been true to his own preaching, I wouldn't have given much thought to his ministry. I started reading about him with a critical eye some decades ago. I suppose he may have been more earnest early on, but at some point he drifted into striving to shape the political will of America and just about every other place he went. He was consciously building a democratic culture, and religion was the cover for that work. Decision Theology is the twin brother of basic democratic political theory. Yet, behind the scenes his organization would funnel certain members of the herds of penitents back into organizations that preached a totally different gospel from his. He did so to avoid political fights. It's the same game he played when holding counsel with VIPs who wanted to be seen with him, and with whom he wanted to be seen. He was a neocon Zionist to the core.
RE: Tomorrowland! - IainH - 03-06-2018
(03-06-2018, 09:21 AM)Ed Hurst Wrote: My biggest problem with Billy Graham is how he too often said one thing in public and did something entirely different behind the scenes. Had he been true to his own preaching, I wouldn't have given much thought to his ministry. I started reading about him with a critical eye some decades ago. I suppose he may have been more earnest early on, but at some point he drifted into striving to shape the political will of America and just about every other place he went. He was consciously building a democratic culture, and religion was the cover for that work. Decision Theology is the twin brother of basic democratic political theory. Yet, behind the scenes his organization would funnel certain members of the herds of penitents back into organizations that preached a totally different gospel from his. He did so to avoid political fights. It's the same game he played when holding counsel with VIPs who wanted to be seen with him, and with whom he wanted to be seen. He was a neocon Zionist to the core.Sometime back I read an article online highly critical of the Dr, which confirmed what you're saying. I didn't care for his cosying up to the elites. I know more about Franklin who uses his charity as a membership card into affluent society. If you are hired into management level of SP you have to sign a non disclosure agreement. I've been friendly with several people who move here to work in administration only to resign within a year. Although they cannot say why they quit, the disillusion is palpable. It's the same with all large scale "Christian" organizations which is why I prefer small. If you cannot name and know a little about your fellow Church members it's too big.